NFL getting political?
 

Formar Viking Matt Birk's opinion letter to the Star Trib.
http://www.startribune.com/opinion/c...1.html?refer=y

Viking's punter, Chris Kluwe's Response in PP.
http://blogs.twincities.com/outofbou...o-14-problems/

Regardless of what your view on gay marriage is, they're both worth a read.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

Kluwe Rocks!

Re: NFL getting political?
 

I agree. I haven't seen an argument for banning gay marriage that didn't involve religion as a reason or falsely speculating that children of gay parents are somehow worse off.

If someone has one I'm open to hearing it.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

The one thing I can fault Kluwe's argument for is part about the first amendment. The freedom of speech and religion limits government from passing laws as it pertains to religion. Unfortunately, it doesn't prevent people from using religion as an argument to pass a law. At best, it prevents law makers from favoring a religion, or promoting a religion.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

That's all the reason I need. If the Bible says man and a women that's the way it is.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

The bible says many things that are now seen as antiquated, and would be considered oppressive, or misogynistic. So, if you're going to use "the bible says so" as justification for an argument, you'd better be prepared to put your money where your mouth is be willing to accept all of other things that would come along with it.

Furthermore, that whole "shall not lye with another man" thing was actually referring to a practice known as Pederast. The social acceptance of this changed several times through out history. At some points it was normal and accepted rite of passage, at other times it was viewed as hazing or the modern day equivalents to rape. Hence why it was not condoned by the bible.

Finally, in order to justify Christianity as a argument for this law you would need to be able to argue that Christianity is the one true correct religion. I believe in God. Key word believe, not know. I know gravity exists. I know this because I can pick up anything on my desk and drop it. I believe in a higher power, but can not prove it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeCLwtWbhEs

Re: NFL getting political?
 

Rice Bobby, Pure Rice

Re: NFL getting political?
 

Dropping something on your desk proves gravity exists. Correct.

Dropping something on your desk proves gravity exists - because God created gravity. Can you still prove gravity exists, or is it something you can not explain?

I will keep my own thoughts to myself, but I can definitely play Devil's advocate... Oh wait, that is something that doesn't exist. Or does it, since I can play it?

Re: NFL getting political?
 

Aaah, but you're making an assumption that I don't necessarily agree with.

You're argument is that in order for gravity to exist, that God must have created it. This assumes that we know for a fact God exists. You would first need to prove the existence of God. In which case you've proven that God exists, the bible is real, a man should not lye with another man, that women should be good servants to their husbands, we shouldn't eat meat on Fridays, thqt some old white guy split an ocean with his hands, and that water can be chemically altered to make fermented grapes.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

This is a tired, wasted argument anyways. This law we're voting on does not allow gay marriage in MN, it will still be illegal. It just makes it more difficult for another liberal politician to rewrite our laws as they see fit in the future. I will be voting yes, and anybody that doesn't like it, or thinks I'm some kind of homophobe because of it, can kiss my ass. I get really tired of the name-calling, and it's only ever from the left, that should tell you a lot.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

Not seeing any name calling here. We're just having a rational discussion about why we're voting one way or another.

And you're correct. Voting no does not some how legalize gay marriage. As you stated it would basically remain the same, and make it harder for a gay marriage amendment to be passed in the future. That said, voting yes is a vote to limit a human beings privileges (note I did not say right). Some people are okay with voting to take way someone else's privileges. I personally am not, with out further justification such as what I had originally asked someone to explain to me. And that is, without using religion or falsely accusing homosexuals of being bad parents, is there a reason they should not be allowed to marry? I'm open to hearing one.

Those of us voting no understand that this will not change whether or not homosexuals can get married. They still won't, either way. However, if you support reform for a certain position the why would you vote for a bill that would make you position less of a possibility in the future? Say you support the legalization of marijuana. It's currently illegal. If a bill for stronger penalties for possession comes up, you wouldnt support that, even though supporting it doesn't change the legality of marijuana.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

Exactly, I don't even live in MN yet it seems like we're some of the few to actually understand this (based on what I read and see on Facebook, other media, etc.).

Re: NFL getting political?
 

Pederast is a completely different thing all together. At no point was it ever considered ok. Multiple times was it stated marriage is for a man and women. (Matt 19:5; Mark 10:7-12; Eph 5:22-32; 1 Thess 4:4; Mal 2:14-16;Matt 5:32-33; Matt 19:4-6,9; Mark 10:11-12; Lk 16:18; Rom 7:2-3; 1 Cor 7:10-11). And as far as arguing that it is the one true religion I am not about arguing. I will defend my reasons for my faith but that's what makes it what it is. If there was concrete evidence then everyone would believe and there would be no reason for faith. Am I against gay marriage, yes. Am I going to mock, ridicule and persecute gays, no. I'll explain to them why it's wrong but you gotta let them make a decision. Good info though.

Furthermore if gay people want to be together there is nothing I can do about it. But don't taint the word marriage. Make it a different word or something to keep it from being associated with an actual marriage between a man and a women.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

Fair enough. And because churches are private entities, I don't see anything wrong with an individual church or an entire sect preventing homosexuals from having a religious ceremony - or preventing their religious authorities from performing a marriage ceremony.

However, what I do see an issue with is preventing gay couples in a committed relationship from having the same rights that I, as a married person, have. This is more of a legal issue than it is one of spirituality and religious right/wrong. This presents problems is many different areas including; visitation rights, sharing of information, HIPPA, death (probate), parenting/custody, taxes, and many others.

And what if the word marriage were kept out of it? The idea of a civil union basically is giving gay couple a piece of paper from the state recognizing "This person gets all your shit when you die." I say that sarcastically, but again, there are many other rights that a civil union would allow to gay couples with out calling it a marriage.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

Just to speak on a couple laughable points. Yes we actually all know it doesnt make gay marriage legal, Dont undermine our intelligence by thinking we are all uneducated in the policies that are being put forth.
Second, Can we all agree that the state constitution is to GRANT rights, and not limit rights? So why are we even voting on this. I have a suspicion that if this passes you will see it immediately overturned by the state supreme court. and people will get all pissy how the supreme court is overstepping. The same exact thing happened when they tried this in California.
Third, and i have never understood this, why does it matter if gays are allowed to marry? Does it somehow affect you in some way shape or form? Its humorous to see the religious people get up in arms about the sanctity of marriage, when one in three male female marriages end in divorce. Maybe you should look to end divorces to protect the sanctity of marriage rather than enabling loving couples the same right given to you. Its not about churches being mandated to marry gay couples, its no where near that. Its granting rights under the state to marry couples using a judge. If a church chooses not to marry gays, so be it, they will find another person willing.
Finally, steve you are OUT OF YOUR MIND with this statement "I get really tired of the name-calling, and it's only ever from the left, that should tell you a lot." I find it absolutely laughable. And i havent seen one comment calling you a homophobe.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

Just to spice up this argument. Maybe we should outlaw divorce too.

It says in Matthew 5:32 (NIV)- "But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

I personally see the anti gay movement as similar to the racial movement of the 50s and 60s, maybe not as harsh but terrible things happen because of it all over the country.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

Please keep the religious mockery out of this thread, it's disrespectful to our religious members.

This is what I've been saying for a few years now; allow them the same rights, but call it something other than marriage.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

WTF? I am religous, im catholic, why cant I list facts regarding the bible to argue points on gay marriage? Screw that.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

what do you have against the YMCA. hahaha
I laugh because this whole conversation is funny.
Oh, and I am very religious as well. :) I think ill be Buddhist this week.
No need to be so sensitif. If you truly believe then nothing we say can dissuade you of that. Its a very personal thing but i dont think an admin should be editing when someone is stating links that say bad things against any religion.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

^^^

Complain to Scheides if you don't agree with my actions, but I can already tell you exactly how that'll go. This is the politics section, not the religious section, let's leave it that way.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

True, but someone is trying to use religion as a means to justify a political argument. They opened the door to counter arguments involving religion.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

He used his religious beliefs to back up his personal views and opinions which everyone is entitled, and entitled to do so without being mocked.

We had a lot of butthurt members and even threats of violence the last time this section was open, we will not let it get anywhere even close to that again which is exactly why it's moderated so closely.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

You might have seen a couple of these cars running around town. This is Richard talking about the whole "Vote No" cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...v=56CVWyhSJRk#!

Re: NFL getting political?
 

is that your evo with the vote no on the interview?

Re: NFL getting political?
 

No, thats Richards

Re: NFL getting political?
 

Speaking of separating church and state.. I see this as less of opinion driven issue and more of a human rights movement. Using Religion as a reason to vote yes is a joke unless you never had premarital sex or have looked at porn, etc. If we followed everything that the Bible says "should be done such and such way" this world would be flipped upside down from what it is today. Well hey at least everyone in the nation has the same religion so we can base our political policies off of OHHHHH WAIT.

I'm voting no, mainly because I believe people have the right to love/marry/spend THEIR LIFE with who THEY want. It's not like if gay marriage were to be legal everyone would just start craving dick constantly. Doesn't effect me negatively whatsoever, helps make people happy, fuck it. But heh we had to fight for colored people to have equality, women the right to vote, etc etc, and now gay people being able to do something that any straight person on the planet can do.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

And considering the giant heading on this section says "FACTS ONLY" anyone who brings up religion as the sole means to change something politically should expect ridicule. Sure, you can believe it's fact. But it's not, can't be proven by any means, and not everyone has to buy into it.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

This is more less the point I was trying to make.

Re: NFL getting political?
 

All I have is my phone, so ill keep it short. I agree with Jake.

Also- the Chris Kluwe radio ads made me LOL

Re: NFL getting political?
 

Here are some random other things that the bible says we can and can't do. Yet no one seems to have a problem with them. Well, cept maybe the last one. I doubt it would stand up in court if I said "Because the bible says it's okay to cut off my wife's hand."

‎"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you."

"Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the lord."

"Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."

"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

"Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery."

"hen men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets. Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her."